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Four Eclectic Decades with Van Dyke Parks, An Interview
by Jordan Hoffman

published 4/26/99

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Jordan Hoffman is LeisureSuit.net's Queens-based Senior Editor.



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Bela Bartok meets Beck: Composer, singer and music advocate Van Dyke Parks
Van Dyke Parks has been the man behind the men for over thirty-five years. He's worked either as a producer or session musician with The Byrds, Randy Newman, Little Feat, Phil Ochs, Harry Nilsson, Arlo Guthrie, Bonnie Raitt, Harper's Bizarre, Judy Collins, Tim Buckley, Ringo Starr, Ry Cooder, the DBs, Joe Henry, U2, Fiona Apple, Rufus Wainright, Manhattan Transfer, Toad the Wet Sprocket, Vonda Shepard, Steve Poltz, Syd Straw, Gordon Lightfoot, Carly Simon, and many others. It was Van Dyke Parks that The Beach Boys's Brian Wilson enlisted to write lyrics for and act as muse to the shelved album Smile, perhaps the best known pop album that no one's heard. And it's Van Dyke Parks that's written TV and film music as diverse as "Sesame Street", "Melrose Place", "The Two Jakes", "Popeye" and "Private Parts." But this is all, you must keep in mind, his day job.

Van Dyke Parks has been recording indescribable music, collected on fine thematic albums. His first, Song Cycle, a hodge-podge of fits and starts, overheard tunes and recalled melodies sounds like "Sgt. Pepper" on even more drugs. Discover America focuses a bit more on a fascinating juxtaposition of 40s pop and Trinidad calypso, with lyrics in accordance. Jump! borrows greatly from Stephen Foster-esque early Americana to spin the tales of Joel Chandler Harris's Br'er Rabbit and Uncle Remus. His eventual collaboration with Brian Wilson, Orange Crate Art, is a love letter to Steinbeck's California, recalled through a 50s technicolor lens. These are wildly imaginative, different songs, by a singer and composer who serves up musical genres with his orchestras as though they were mixing records on a turntable. And with a lot of wit. He's like a one-man conservatory, a satirist, an ethno-musicologist, a mindfucker. You've never heard anything like the music of Van Dyke Parks, who has recently released a first live album, Moonlighting: Live At The Ash Grove, which revisits older tunes and features playful public domain material like the horribly catchy "C-H-I-C-K-E-N." He is currently in New York collaborating with controversial artist Art Spiegelman. I was lucky enough to correspond with him via e-mail for this exclusive interview.

Jordan Hoffman: What's this I hear about a project with Art Spiegelman?

Van Dyke Parks: Art has asked me to write music for a theatre piece he's written. It centers on a topic he knows and loves: the history of the Comix. We're exploring it now. (You must have seen this week's New Yorker!)

Art's music appreciation predates 1948, roughly. His interest in me may stem from this, and my general irrelevance. Both of us are determined to avoid living in the present, tense.

But it's Art's urgent drive that appeals to me. Compound this with an indefatigable humanism and political incorrectness: you get his real appeal.

I haven't seen this combination of the above, with the intellect to back it up, since my work for Phil Ochs.

JH: What was the nature of your work with Phil Ochs?

VDP: I co-produced his record "Phil Ochs' Greatest Hits"(!) on A & M. We met in Cambridge in '64, and ended up close friends.

JH: All of your studio albums, from the original "Song Cycle" through "Jump!" and "Tokyo Rose" up to "Orange Crate Art", are all richly devised theme pieces. Do you ever get the urge just to sit down a write a song with no other pretext?

1968's "Song Cycle"
VDP: Yes I do. I have. I will. All it takes is time. I've spoken at length (see Paul Zollo's book Songwriters on Songwriting, NYC da Capo Press) about the songwriting process.

JH: Your music is a wonderful stew of styles and genres jumping out where you'd least expect them. Is this eclecticism something you work very hard at achieving, or a natural form of expression for you?

VDP: The albums I've done--if that's what you mean by my music--are really unpremeditated by-and-large. Looking back on them (one, on average, every five years, since I was 23 years old), I see something in common in them: the all appear to be thematic, and have an unintended "cinematic" quality ("synesthetic" might be a better word!). They're all demanding in many ways as well, although this too is unintended. They're thicker with thought than most album experiences that are built with disconnected free-standing songs. I don't apologize for that. I wish there were more artists who pursued this path, as it leads to different places.

Yet, it's fair to say: the age of the "concept" album, (at least as far as low-brow music goes, is passe). Sure, that's in part due to a ravenous audience need for instant info. Comedy has taken the same hit really, with the triumph of the one-liner over the tale of the shaggy dog. "Tail wags dog". "Dog bites man"." Headless woman in topless bar". Short ideas are easy to sell and digest. The single is still the ultimate sound-bite-freeze-frame, and what drives the recording industry.

That's okay too. This magazine format has its place in our staccato environment. And it serves the affluent mob well, in its rapid progress for profit.

My first purchased record was a 45 ('54). It was "Lover", by Les Paul and Mary Ford. A short thought, absolute genius, and it changed my perception of the world. Real good things can come in small packages.

40s pop goes to Trinidad in this whacked-out early 70s classic.
JH: Were you fascinated with obscure music sources as a child, or did you grow into that? Was there an epiphanic trip to Trinidad before the recording of "Discover America?"

VDP: Trinidad, through Calypso music, has been a fascination since early childhood. I've been to Trinidad repeatedly, and before '71 ("Discover America"). Coincidentally, "The Esso Trinidad Steelband" and "The Mighty Sparrow" albums have both just been re-released by Warner Brothers Records, Japan. Both underscore my love for the field.

JH: Although you work non-stop on TV and movie projects, not to mention arranging orchestras for all the young hot whippersnappers like Fiona Apple and Rufus Wainwright, it remains that you are still best known for a project that never was completed, The Beach Boys' "Smile". With thirty years of distance, and mountains of articles about what could-have-been, what have you taken from that experience?

VDP: Many intangible residuals, but mainly a respect for Brian Wilson's courage to redefine song-writing parameters and vernacular arranging.

JH: You worked with the brilliant singing group Manhattan Transfer before recording "Orange Crate Art", which has a good deal of some of the Manhattan Transfer harmonic complexities, especially 'My Hobo Heart' and 'Summer In Monterey'. Did your work with Manhattan Transfer act at all as a primer for "Orange Crate Art"?

VDP: Although I have the greatest respect for "Manhattan Transfer" (co-wrote and provided vocal arrangement for them), I don't get the connection. I've loved group-vocals since childhood, however, and totally approve of their works.

[Cover Art]
The newly-released live album, featuring new versions of old tunes and some wild covers
JH: "Orange Crate Art", I believe, was written specifically for Brian Wilson. Did you find it curious to rearrange these tunes for your own vocal style for the live album, "Moonlighting"?

VDP: No, I didn't.

JH: Your singing style is, as would be expected, very unique. How would you describe the way you sing?

VDP: It's adequate for some of my song-writing ideas. I'm sure your singing style is, as would be expected, very unique as well. That validates you as a person. I hope you never lose your voice, for any reason, and that you consider what it may do to effect positive change. Like in pistol play, it ain't how big the gun, it's how good the shot. I may need target practice.

JH: When I played some of your tunes to friends who hadn't heard them before, a phrase that kept reappearing was "kiddie music". While I would never suggest that your music was immature or childish, it is true that much "music for children" cribs from many of the same early-American or "gaslight" sources. Indeed, the only other place you could hear a song similar to "Hominy Grove" would be on line for a ride at Disneyland. Why do you think there is this childish connotation to this style of music?

1984's controversial "Jump!"
VDP: You may yet broaden your social opportunities! At this introductory point, which we may survive, I have no idea how old you or your friends are. But I think it's fair to say that there's a distinction between "childish" and "child-like".

I wrote "Hominy Grove" for my (then) seven year old daughter. Like the rest of "Jump!", it speaks to a young audience. I did my best not to underestimate that audience. I'm happy with the work. Your friends are entitled to their opinions, puerile though they may be. In spite of that, I hope you'll find entertainment in the song.

I should add, however: I have taken a ride at Disneyland. I was there in 1955 the day it opened, and I had lunch with Walt Disney. I enjoyed the experience immensely, although I thought he might have underestimated his audience.

JH: Please don't think me rude for this reference to "kiddie music". I do know there is quite a difference between childish and childlike, and recognize it in "Hominy Grove" and the complete album "Jump!" I do still find it curious, though, that much of the music aimed toward children (such as the tunes one hears on line at Disneyland) is taken from some of the same early-American sources you often make reference to. I still wonder why that is.

VDP: "Hominy Grove" is a reel. In the Scotch/Irish tradition of Appalachian (what is called "old-time" music by the locals), this musical idiom has found itself into a lot of commercial interpretations of our American character.

It stands to reason that Appalachian idioms best represent the idealized American dream, as that mountain area (running from Maine to the Georgian Piedmont) was the spine of our original national geographic body.

The song was inspired by a comment in the text about Br'er Rabbit regarding his fiddling and "patting" (dance pre-dating tap).

So, to the reel I added a "release", which is a quotation from Liszt (Hungarian Rhapsody No. 14 in F Minor). I didn't want to give the impression that Br'er Rabbit was a low-brow red-neck! It was just another small career decision.

By telling you everything you didn't need to know about "Hominy Grove", I may have given you an idea about how songwriters and arrangers struggle to evoke common musical codes to bring characters to life. Perhaps you'll reconsider the merit in my choice of idiom. It won't wash for every urban elitist.

Yet, some 20 years ago, I aimed to make this musical character faithful to the original that jumps off the pages at the Archives of American Folk Culture, Library of Congress. It was more preservationist than creative. And I now I must rest my case.

JH: The early-American genre, as is made obvious by your litany above, is just one of the many genres you incorporate into your music, of course. Another artist who uses esoterica and eclecticism, as well as sarcasm, is Beck. Are you familiar with his music?

VDP: I've heard enough of Beck to realize his references for pre-existing idioms. I'm grateful that he directs his audience to them. I've also met him, and can tell you that he seems like a very smart fellow, with surprising modesty, considering his fame. I like him.

JH: Why is George Carlin thanked on "Moonlighting?"

VDP: George asked me to let him know whenever I performed, so I did. He came to the Ash Grove the night we recorded that CD. I've always admired George Carlin tremendously. He's right up there with Lenny Bruce in my book. It floored me when I learned he'd had triple-by-pass surgery just 3 days before that concert. I was touched, and wanted to salute him publicly. George shoots straight from the hip in his best-seller "Brain Droppings". Funny, if that's the right word, how comedy can come out of such crisis.

JH: And wrapping up, back to the first question and your concept albums: would you ever consider launching a theatrical production, like your friend Randy Newman did with "Faust?" And, if we can play hypothetically, which masterpiece of literature would you most want to put to music?

VDP: Of course, I'm still intrigued with American folklore. From this field, my favorite topic is the tales of Br'er Rabbit. Without the slave (introduced by Joel Chandler Harris), these works stand the test of time---what Mark Twain called "Our most precious piece of stolen goods".

They've had time to mature.


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THE YAK SHACK


Name: sam moore
Subject: van dyke parks
-- May 13, 2006 at 9:58PM
Wow. We need a fan club base, and i am starting one in NC, if there are any takers....

Name: sam moore
Subject: smoore@harperlove.co m
-- May 13, 2006 at 9:49PM
Don't leave me hanging, this is my work emai-do you converse with those seking an audience at all?

Name: sam moore
Subject: van dyke parks
-- May 13, 2006 at 9:46PM
Van Dyke, what is your name? Van Dyke, Van, etc.
Smoore@harperlov e.com

Name: Garry Dunn
Subject: wild bill good bye old paint
-- Nov 17, 2003 at 6:24PM
can not get this out of my head need to find the player piano music from wild bill understand this is from alburm wild bill/ two jakes. is it on cd or tape

Name: Mike Tiffany
Subject: For the love of the music
-- Jan 14, 2003 at 8:50AM
I would love to contact Van Dyke Parks regarding an upcoming project recording some favorite BB meledies in Spanish. Bobby Figueroa (long time drummer with the Beach Boys) has had this dream for years and for the love of the songs, I am assisting in underwriting as much as I can of the cost.
How great it would be to have Mr. Parks lend his musical genious to this effort by assisting us in the studio.

Eitherway, I would just like to say that I recently saw Mr. Parks at the Carl Wilson Foundation concert and to his credit, he is quite the entertainer! I very much enjoyed him.

Name: Tom Mitchell
Subject: Seal Beach Days
-- Jul 23, 2002 at 11:51AM
Concert Idea: Prison of Socrates/Golden Bear/Rendevous Ballroom Reunion @ South Coast Perf. or LB State. With Van Dyke Parks, Mason Williams, "al"?, other denizens of Seal Beach in late 50s, maybe Paul williams, etc.There' Great music to be mined from that Era.

Name: Bob Bailey
Subject: Harlan County War
-- Jan 19, 2002 at 12:18PM
Van Dyke,

I'm not sure if this is still monitored, but I did want to contibute to the admiration of your work. I recently viewed "Harlan County War," which I understand you worked on. I've been disappointed not to find the score or soundtrack, as I'm always looking for Appalachian flavored music.

Should you come to the Bay Area, let me know... I'll be on the lookout.

Bob

Name: Ukulele Lou
Subject: Columnated
-- Oct 24, 2001 at 2:01PM
Van Dyke,

Thanks you for your kind spirit.
I will soon open the wine.

Name: Courtney Leiba
Subject: Tripoli Steelband
-- Aug 23, 2001 at 11:05PM
Hello Van Dyke,
Just a note to say hello from Tripoli Steelband "Scratcher man" I am now living in Australia and have my own band Calypso Pan-Tas-Tic. I comprise of piano, bass, drums and I, (Courtney) double on Tenor pan, congas and vocals. I keep in touch with Hugh Borde very often and are well inform of what is happening with the nboys on the internet. Just saying hello and hope we will be back on the road again. Courtney

Name: Dave
Subject: Columbus Boyschoir School
-- May 3, 2001 at 11:18PM
I met Mr, Parks after Christmas break at the Columbus Boyschoir School in 1956. He had just completed a film titled The Swan.I think it would surprise people if they knew was who was in the cast. (Maybe not) He is a rare talent and I'm sure Hollywood realized it way back then.

Name: Tony
Subject: VDP
-- Feb 19, 2001 at 7:17PM
Greetings from Australia, I first heard of Van Dyke Parks after hearing "Surfs Up" album by Beach Boys
I went through a period of trying to obtain information in this brilliant composer/musician. As a result I have
purchased all Van Dykes works over the past year. My collection was completed with the purchase of "Moonlighting&q uot;.
Just a suggestion but I thing an album with music only would be brilliant, the same goes for Brian Wilson, sort of
a Pet Sounds without lyrics. I will continue to love Van Dyke Parks music so keep up the good work.

Name: Richard
Subject: Anthony V.
-- Feb 13, 2001 at 1:37PM
Hi - My name's Richard Parks, I'm Van Dyke's son...my dad has a really awful computer that allows him to write and receive emails, but he can't really surf the web. Sometimes I look around for articles about him and copy them onto an email to him (I'm at school in Montreal). First of all it was really nice to read your article - very much appreciated. I thought that Anthony V.'s response was touching, and I forwarded it to my dad. He'd like to be able to email Anthony V., if you've got the address. He told me that "that Goodman crowd is one egg to crack" or something along those lines. At anyrate could you help me out? Thanks for the page, at any rate,
Richard Parks
"rparks@po- box.mcgill.ca"

Name: Tom Shotton
Subject: Hello!
-- Jul 16, 2000 at 4:46PM
Don`t really know what I`m commenting on! Just thought I`d say hello to other fans. I caught Van Dyke live in London last December and it was just great. He signed my Song Cycle LP and was just charming. It`s really nice to see people acknowledging his brilliance.

Thankyou.

Name: Anthony Responds
Subject: Re: Orange Crate Art
-- Jan 8, 2000 at 12:10PM
Dear Mr. Hoffman,
Thanks for you kind response. In defense of your mother, my son assits on his set up if I use the net, and I have quite a time trying to control the mouse myself. I'm glad that I was on long enough to see your response. Thanks for the info. I'll give it a try! I have LSN bookmarked now and hope to return to read more of your work.

Happy New Year and
Thanks Again,
Best,

A.V.

Name: Jordan Hoffman Responds
Subject: Re: Orange Crate Art
-- Jan 8, 2000 at 11:25AM
Anthony--
Thanks for sharing. It's great to read that an octogenerian can use the web---my own 55 year old mother can't even hold a mouse.

Anyway, according to Van Dyke's "Moonlighting" cd of 1988, his email address is GeoWashBrown@earthlink.net. I"m not sure if it is still operative, but there is one easy way for you to find out. He did have his own homepage (BrerRabbit.com) but it has been down for some time. . . .

Name: Anthony
Subject: Orange Crate Art
-- Jan 8, 2000 at 10:49AM
I turned 80 years old in March '99. I was a music lover all of my life. My son gave me my own copy of Van Dyke Parks' CD, "Orange Crate Art" after having first listened to it, quite a while back, with my son a number of times, and having fallen in love with it. To me, each and every song on that album is a masterpiece. Each and every arrangement was superbly done. I could listen to the "Orange Crate Art" CD straight through every day and only find more to love about it. I grew up in the 20's and 30's listening to some of the finest songs ever written as performed by some of the finest artists there ever were. After WWII, I regularly went to see the big acts perform at local theaters, including Benny Goodman, The Ink Spots and so many other great acts. That was a great time for music. I tended to enjoy more of the instrumental and novelty music that was out in the 50's than I did rock & roll, but I was and still am a fan of the Beatles along with my sons since their first appearance on American TV, on Ed Sullivan. I know good music. And that brings me again to "Orange Crate Art". It is absolutely one of the finest pieces of music, song by song on that cd, that I have ever heard, and it brings me joy every time sit back, relax and give it another listen. (I only found this page while doing a web search for Mr. Parks' own page, if he had one, so that I could relate the above to him myself. If anyone here is in a position to pass my words onto him,
or to pass on a link to his webpage to me,
I would be "crate"ful.

Thanks,

Anthony V.

Name: Aister Rea;estate
Subject: the general public's ignorance
-- Oct 12, 1999 at 10:59AM
I don't wanna sound superior here, that would be a gross mistake, but why hasn't VDP been elevated to some kind of godhead status , I mean I can't even see any great cult market for the man. His music is awesome though, I just bought Tokyo Rose the other day , and it was an incredibly surreal experience, diffucult to come to terms with, heavy references

Name: Dale Leopold
Subject: Aint no VD like our VD!
-- Oct 11, 1999 at 1:46PM
First, apologies for the header, but I couldn't resist--as I was writing it I realized it was a play on a line from "Li'l Abner" concerning the politician Jack S.:" There ain't no Jackass like our Jack S!"

Now that I've cleared that up, on to the subject at hand: Mr. Parks, who has been a musical hero to me since, oh, 1975 or so when I first heard Song Cycle. I loved the Joycean wordplay (I would guess that Elvis Costello has worn out several copies of this album), but what really got to me was the marvelous, halluciantory music. "Donovan's Colours" is still one of my very favorite pieces; having recently purchased the CD version, I have played this repeatedly to my 18-mo-old son (if listening to Mozart is supposed to make him smarter, surely Song Cycle will produce a Nobel Prize in 2030 or so). I also adore Van Dyke's Smile lyrics (more Joyce)--Cabinessence, Surf's Up and H&V--with the possible exception of God Only Knows, the Beach Boys didn't get any better than when performing these songs.
Lest it appear that I'm stuck in 1968, I also heartily recommend VDP's Caribbean travelogues, and I am delighted when I hear his work pop up in unexpected places (most recently, a quintessentially Van Dyke song in "The Brave Little Toaster.")

Name: tony skinwood
Subject: re-release in uk
-- Sep 21, 1999 at 11:47AM
does anyone know if ryko( or anyone else)are gonna re-release any more van dyke parks albums in the near future?

Name: Edgard Varese
Subject: Philistines
-- Sep 18, 1999 at 2:58PM
The present-day composer refuses to die.

Name: Umm
Subject: Re: clang of the yankee reaper
-- Sep 3, 1999 at 5:26PM
Define good.

Name: The Editors Respond
Subject: Re: clang of the yankee reaper
-- Sep 3, 1999 at 12:05PM
Allan---"Yankee Reaper" is a very good album, in our opinion, but it probably does stand out as the least-Van Dyke Parksish, if you know what I mean. There are moments on the album that go far into Bob Dylan "Pat Garrett" territory (not a bad territory!) and has some of VDP's most stripped down arrangements. Also--mostly covers

Name: allan bleasedale
Subject: clang of the yankee reaper
-- Sep 3, 1999 at 10:50AM
I've just bought 'Discover America' and 'Song Cycle' and think both are awesome, but I've heard that 'Clang of the yankee reaper' isn't that good, is this true?

Name: Jody
Subject: Re: Jump!
-- Jul 31, 1999 at 7:15PM
>Leach---I love "Jump!" >more each time I play >it. Rumor is that pop->giant Michael Stip >played it over & over >again as he & his band >R.E.M. created "Fables >of the Reconstruction."

Michael Stip?

Well, I know that in the mid-'80s, Michael Stipe mentioned "Uncle Remus" as an influence in at least one interview(Parks' "Jump!" is based on "Uncle Remus.") If memory serves, I believe Stipe's familiarity with the "Jump!" album led R.E.M. to ask Van Dyke Parks to produce "Fables of the Reconstruction" -- but apparently, the band and Parks had differing opinions on the way the record was to be produced and arranged. They brought in folk-rock veteran producer Joe Boyd instead.

Name: Greg Leach
Subject: Jump!
-- Jul 31, 1999 at 7:44AM
Eclectic: A word often used to describe art out of the mainstream of culture. But, Van Dyke Parks most decidedly personifies this word in every album he creates. I feel he crossed the threshold of music, to fine art with Jump! When I bought this album in early '85, I bought it on a whim, because I liked the cover, and was anxious as to if it was a theme album. Over the years, I have occasionally wondered why this masterpiece was never brought to the stage. And I have resided myself to the fact that, inasmuch as it would be enjoyable to see a theatrical production, it wouldn't carry the same element of art, that "Jump" inherently had via it's vocal, orchestral and production artist's. I feel that at some point in our culture, this work will be recognized as a great work, and will be taken to the masses. Let's not short-side ourselves, and confine it to the archives. I would love to see this embodied into a movie, such as "The First Musical Computer Animated Movie"!

Name: Jordan Hoffman Responds
Subject: Re: Jump!
-- Jul 31, 1999 at 3:35AM
Leach---I love "Jump!" more each time I play it. Rumor is that pop-giant Michael Stip played it over & over again as he & his band R.E.M. created "Fables of the Reconstruction."

Name: The Editors Respond
Subject: Re: Van Dyke Parks
-- Jul 5, 1999 at 8:52PM
Our sources tell us Mr. Carlin's tenure on Shining Time Station has ended. Odd, Carlin keeps coming up in various LSn guises, from a recent TOH, to a South Park Review, to this Yak. Is something "occultish" happening here? Tits meet Toots, toots tits.

Name: Paul Kilduff
Subject: Van Dyke Parks
-- Jul 2, 1999 at 7:53AM
Nice interview with Van Dyke Parks.... He interviews like his music: direct, funny, literate, convoluted. I had "Country Faire" (?) going through my head this morning and thought I'd see what was on the web about him. For me, "Song Cycle" is still wonderful, contemporary music, which I play over in my mind often. BTW, when talking about the TV shows for which he has written, you left out "Shining Time Station." George Carlin is Mr. Conductor on that show. THANKS!


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